posted 08-07-2004 17:00               

I'm curious if you have investigated whether the Royal Holiday Club
is appropriate for your timeshare portfolios?

Some previous posters have mentioned that 30,000 points in the RHC system is the minimum suggested entry level.

Any comments about your take on the RHC program would be appreciated. I've read your analyses of other programs but I don't remember if you've discussed RHC.

posted 08-07-2004 17:22               

I haven't heard of the Royal Holiday club. I am honored that you put my name next to the legendary PerryM. If you have any information about it, I'd be willing to run it through my models to tell you what it says.

You should know that I am a rank amateur in timesharing. I am one of those guys who stayed at the holiday inn express last night. The sum total of my timesharing experience is in the last 4 weeks.

I am pretty confident about my financial model and my assessment of RCI points. I would love for there to be a reciprocal agreement between RCI points and WorldMark for points conversions.

In my research, I looked at RCI points, Club SunTerra, WorldMark and Shell Vacation Club. I know a fair amount about all those point systems. I also looked at Marriott pretty closely.

Where can I find the rules of the Royal Holiday club?

posted 08-07-2004 21:19               

Go to www.royal-holiday.com
for more information.

Their website is not the easiest to navigate to obtain information.
It takes practice to know where to look.

When you get to their home page you will have a variety of link choices - click on "Resort Guide" - The next page that opens will
have a vertical list of choices on the left side of the page.
Click on "Service Centers" - On the next page, scroll down toward the bottom of the page and click on "The Membership" link.
The page that opens will give you membership info but scroll down
toward the bottom of the page again, and click on the "Types of Membership" Link. It's also instructive to read the "Member benefits" and "FAQ" links.

Now, under the "Types of Memberships" will be another hyperlink -
"Go to Resort Guide" - click on this link - Choose the bottom choice "Select your destination - Show All" - click the "Go" box.
Now you will have about 8 pages of the resorts affiliated with their club - the hyperlinks to scroll through their pages is toward the top of the first page. As an example, when you get to New York on page 5 - click on "View Details" - you will see 2 properties listed for Manhattan - The Affinia Dumont and the Lynden Gardens. Under the description of each property, again, click on "View Details" You will see toward the top of the page that opens with the property name another group of hyperlinks in a horizontal row - click on the one that says "Credits" - this will tell you the number of Credits (aka points) to get to that property in all the different seasons and the different types of accomodations.

Note as you scroll through their Resort List that many of the properties are "Affiliated Resorts". My understanding is these are properties that the RHC has contractual agreements with for specified time periods.

One of the things you won't find at their website - at least I haven't found it - is pricing. Sometimes RHC memberships are listed for sale on Ebay.

One of the potential benefits of RHC membership is that they have
properties in many of the major cities of the world (e.g., Rome, London, Paris, NYC, San Francisco) and as long as you have enough
credit/points and there is availability - you get the exchange.

Most, if not all, of the Tuggers who belong to RHC and have posted about it - have positive things to say about RHC.
Personally, I'm still trying to find out more information about them and where besides Ebay that resales are available. Perhaps a
RHC member can chime in and inform us what they think a Gold Plus or Platinum membership (30,000 - 40,000 credits) sells for.

posted 08-07-2004 22:40            

So, if you were to take full advantage, a 15,000 point membership can give you up to 40,000 points every third year, with up to 17,000 points every second year. Look at the RHC points charts, and you will see that 40,000 points most likely can get you anywhere you want to go. And the annual m/fs on a 15,000 point membership are close to $380, while the annual m/fs on a 30,000 point membership are closer to $750.

So, it depends whether you want to use it as an every year membership, or whether you are looking to use it to supplement your portfolio to enable you to go to some hard-to-get places. If you are looking at the latter, you would probably prefer to use it every other year, rather than every year, and 30,000 annual points and $780 m/fs will quickly become a burden.

But, it does get you to some places that are impossible or nearly impossible to get through a trade (I used my points next year for a week in Madrid in May). And the one time I had RHC deposit my 10,000-point ownership (they used 18,000 points, carrying over my points from the prior year), they booked and deposited a New Year's Week in Cozumel that got me top trade power in the RCI system. I traded it to Amsterdam next summer.

So, for an annual m/f of $315, I have gotten good value out of my membership so far. I would have preferred a 15,000-point membership, though.

posted 08-08-2004 01:09               

How do you go about borrowing from the back end and is 10k the least/most that you can take or does it depend on how many points you have?

I have a 30k membership and my m/f are $540.00, but If I added 5k then the m/f would go up to $700.00.

Do you know how often they raise the m/f this is my first year with them.

posted 08-08-2004 01:52            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rsonc:
How do you go about borrowing from the back end and is 10k the least/most that you can take or does it depend on how many points you have?

---

I think that you can borrow an entire year's worth of points from the back end, but 10,000 is the most you can carry over from year to year (and you can only do that every other year, in alternate years the most you can carry over to the next year is 2,000 points).

The way to do it is to call them and tell them you want to do it. They can handle the whole transaction for you on the phone.

posted 08-08-2004 01:55            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rsonc:
Do you know how often they raise the m/f this is my first year with them.

---

I don't think they've raised the m/fs in about 10 years. The $315 I pay is the amount listed for a 10,000 point membership in the initial program documents, created about 10 years ago.

posted 08-08-2004 02:07               

I am glad that they dont raise the fees much. I have been happy with my purchase and thinking about getting 5-10k more but the m/f jump a lot after the 30k do you know why?

posted 08-08-2004 05:55            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rsonc:
Great, thanks for the info, I was short some points for next year and was going to rent them. I would rather borrow from the back end instead.

---

I think that you will have to borrow the whole 30,000 points from the last year, so you will have to use all 60,000 points in one year or lose them (with the exception of the 10,000 points or 2,000 points which you can carry forward to the following year).

quote:

---

Originally posted by rsonc:
I have been happy with my purchase and thinking about getting 5-10k more but the m/f jump a lot after the 30k do you know why?

---

No, just that the program documents set it up that way.

posted 08-08-2004 07:24               

Follow the instructions in my earlier post to get to "The Membership" page at the RHC website. Scroll down toward the bottom of the page. Click on the "FAQ's" hyperlink. Question 5 "What if... I am over 50 years old?" describes how to borrow "from the back end" or in their terminology "accelerating your use of RHC credits". My understanding that if you want to do this, you have to pay the mf fee for the backend year you are borrowing from.

Hoc,
Thanks for your input. I think I would fall in your second category and 15,000 credits/points with the lower mf fees seems
more workable. Also, if I understand their program correctly, and as you mentiond, if you make an excange with RHC for Cozumel, as in your example, one can then deposit the exchange with RCI -
(I don't know if it can be done with II, but I would guess it could) - and then have relatively good trading power to get another nice exchange that otherwise would be difficult to obtain.

Would you have an idea what 15,000 credits from RHC would cost?

posted 08-08-2004 07:39               

I just looked at the link that you provided and it really doesn't provide enough information to do an assessment of the program.

In general, here are some of the key principles I have used to compare RCI Points, WorldMark, Shell Vacation Club and Club SunTerra:

1) Is there a signficant amount of information available and experts I can tap into to figure out what is really happening with the Club.

2) Is there an obvious resale market that I can buy and sell from. Can I figure out easily the going market rate for points?

3) Are the resorts available for trade that I want to trade into so that I know I will use the club/points.

4) What are the purchase price, closing costs, membership fees, maintenance fees, exchange fees, housekeeping fees, etc associated with the club.

5) What are the equivalent rental options for the resorts I would stay at?

6) What happens if everything implodes in the club? Can I get out easily? Do I get title to a deeded property? Is there a solid track record auditable that demonstrates strong vacation club management?

7) Are there good policies for renting points or units? More options is better.

Then, I take all of the financial info and put it into my model to decide what I am going to do. Of course, I will forecast exchange rate variances if it is an international property.

My model will then tell me if it is better simply to rent at those locations or if there is a good deal possible.

Do your homework on all of the above questions and contact me by email. I can then tell you what my model says.

Here is what I concluded on the programs I have analyzed:

1) RCI points. Easiest to buy in cheap and get a good deal. So, I bought in. Don't like all the RCI policies and practices, but the cheap price and available resorts makes up for it.

2) WorldMark. Best overall point system. Great access to high end resorts, but price of entry still a bit too high for me at this time.

3) Shell Vacation Club. Very bad practices of selling points. Too big a variance between people who buy in the resort ($5/pt vs. $1/pt in resale). This will prove to be a disaster.

4) Disney Vacation Club. Don't buy. Just rent the points from owners. The average price that club owners buy at for 30-40 years of pre-paid vacations is roughly the same as you can rent those same points for one year. Why take the risk and tie up capital if you can rent for the same amount? Buying at $73/point is equivalent to renting at $10/pt when you want to go.

5) Marriott. Their points system wasn't made for timesharing. It's a nice outlet for points, but not worth it since the conversion costs in downgrading to hotel room hurts you in exchange value.

posted 08-08-2004 08:13               

Thanks for your reply. I didn't think there would be enough info at their website for you to plug into your analysis model. I'll be back in touch when I have more info. As Hoc mentions, I think that the RHC would be a good supplement for many vacation portfolios.

Hoc - do you know if a RHC membership has to include owning at a particular RHC resort? Or can one just own credits, pay the mf fee,
and have access to all the RHC properties?

posted 08-08-2004 09:17            

quote:

---

Originally posted by MULTIZ321:
Hoc,
Thanks for your input. I think I would fall in your second category and 15,000 credits/points with the lower mf fees seems
more workable. Also, if I understand their program correctly, and as you mentiond, if you make an excange with RHC for Cozumel, as in your example, one can then deposit the exchange with RCI -
(I don't know if it can be done with II, but I would guess it could) - and then have relatively good trading power to get another nice exchange that otherwise would be difficult to obtain.

---

Almost. They choose which unit to deposit for you. You can't book and deposit. But, the way that they choose it gives you top trade power. They call RCI and offer all of the units you can book with your points, and RCI tells them which one they want most. Then RHC books and deposits the unit that RCI requests. In my case, I got the Cozumel New Year's unit.

quote:

---

Originally posted by MULTIZ321:
Would you have an idea what 15,000 credits from RHC would cost?

---

I don't know what it currently costs, but I was offered one last year for $225, plus the transfer fee (which was about $450). I turned it down because they also wanted a $400 escrow fee.

posted 08-08-2004 09:35            

quote:

---

Originally posted by BocaBum99:
1) Is there a signficant amount of information available and experts I can tap into to figure out what is really happening with the Club.

---

There are a few of us with experience here. When I first bought, I found the RHC reps to be less than helpful. Since then, I have gotten good service and information from them. But I would not assume that this will continue. They have a bit of a reputation for not being particularly "service oriented." Many of their reps barely speak English. You need to know what you want and how to get it with this group.

quote:

---

Originally posted by BocaBum99:
2) Is there an obvious resale market that I can buy and sell from. Can I figure out easily the going market rate for points?

---

The RHC resale market is in the toilet. That's what makes it such a good deal. Apparently, there is quite a vocal contingent of buyers who bought from the developer in response to wild promises, who are always talking RHC down and threatening class action suits. So, you will be able to buy quite cheap. Don't count on getting any money back if you sell.

quote:

---

Originally posted by BocaBum99:
3) Are the resorts available for trade that I want to trade into so that I know I will use the club/points.

---

For me, the answer to this was easy: Yes, Yes, YES! This group has resorts in major European cities (Madrid, Paris, London, Rome), in addition to high-demand ski-weeks and resorts in New York City ("New York City!!!??? Get a rope."). This membership gets you to places on your own membership to which you could probably never trade, and in some cases, where there are no other timeshares. This membership is extremely usable.

quote:

---

Originally posted by BocaBum99:
4) What are the purchase price, closing costs, membership fees, maintenance fees, exchange fees, housekeeping fees, etc associated with the club.

---

Membership/maintenance fees are quite reasonable. The resort transfer fee is a bit steep at $450, but those are the only unusual fees involved here. A couple of the RHC resorts have gone "All-inclusive," so if you go to those, you will wind up paying extra. But most have no unexpected charges.

quote:

---

Originally posted by BocaBum99:
5) What are the equivalent rental options for the resorts I would stay at?

---

That depends on you. But I have found that getting the resort through RHC has always been cheaper than renting it.

quote:

---

Originally posted by BocaBum99:
6) What happens if everything implodes in the club? Can I get out easily? Do I get title to a deeded property? Is there a solid track record auditable that demonstrates strong vacation club management?

---

You have a club membership, and no deed. The club owns timeshares, but you have only a Right-to-use interest for about 20 years or so. If everything implodes, you will most likely lose your money, although the timeshare ownerships are assets that could be used to pay some of the club members. This club has been around for about 10 or more years, and the participating resorts have always been good. The program documents state that, if a particular resort is dropped from the program, it must be replaced with an equivalent resort, in value, number of units and quality. But don't count on getting anything back from a sale or an implosion.

quote:

---

Originally posted by BocaBum99:
7) Are there good policies for renting points or units? More options is better.

---

They have about a hundred or so resorts. I don't know how many units in each, but I have never had a problem booking the resort and week I want.

posted 08-08-2004 09:37            

quote:

---

Originally posted by MULTIZ321:
Hoc - do you know if a RHC membership has to include owning at a particular RHC resort? Or can one just own credits, pay the mf fee, and have access to all the RHC properties?

---

RHC, like many other timeshare companies nowadays, has points and weeks memberships. I would never go with a weeks membership, because the options there seem more limited. Get a points membership resale, and then you can use the points to book at any of the RHC resorts based on the number of credits required (as stated on the RHC website).

posted 08-08-2004 10:34               

Thanks so much for your explanations. I now have a much better understanding how RHC works and would be comfortable joining their club.

Now if I can find a good deal in the resale market.

posted 08-08-2004 17:25               

I did a quick and dirty run of my model and here is what I came up with:

Assuming you can buy 30000 points for $2000, the transfer/closing costs are $450, the MF is $540, they will increase at 3%/yr for the next 5 years, and there are no other transaction fees.

Given these parameters, your average cost per week over a 5 year period would be $1063 or about $151/night.

Given that this could be a risky endeavor, I also did a three year payback. If you donated the property after 3 years, it would cost you $1373 or $196/night.

After each of these payback periods, every year you continue will be your then current maintenance fee plus any transaction costs for booking. That would be about $100/night again assuming no transaction fees.

Resorts in Europe are very expensive, so those prices are pretty good for a relatively short payback. As long as you like the resorts and the quality level of them, and you are satisfied that you will be able to trade in, then this could be a good deal for you.

The low upfront capital costs make it attractive, but the maintenance fee really keeps you from making this a great deal.

posted 08-08-2004 19:12            

quote:

---

Originally posted by BocaBum99:
Assuming you can buy 30000 points for $2000, the transfer/closing costs are $450, the MF is $540, they will increase at 3%/yr for the next 5 years, and there are no other transaction fees.

---

The 3% annual increase in m/fs does not comport with actual history, which is that there have been no increases in m/fs for this club for 10 years. Also, you are probably looking at closing costs of $450 plus a $200 escrow fee.

In addition, you might want to run your numbers assuming 15,000 points and an annual m/f around $400. Assume no payback on the back end, and normally a purchase price of under $1,000 would come with 15,000 banked points, plus 15,000 points for the year of purchase.

posted 08-09-2004 13:01               

Mine was not an ebay purchase. Thanks to the help of fellow Tuggers I found a great deal through a resale company. I was keeping an eye on ebay purchases which at the time where going for around $1500 for 30,000 pts + transfer + maint fee. I think if you look hard at different resale companies you will be able to find a better deal. Good Luck - there are some great deals out there!

posted 08-09-2004 17:13               

Assuming a $1750 purchase price including transfer fees, 30000 annual points with 36000 bonus points and an MF of $540/wk.

Here is what I get:

$717/week assuming no booking fees after 5 years.

Only $802/week with no booking fees after 3 years.

This is a fantastic deal! I would buy one of these in a New York Minute. Getting Europe for that amount when you are fairly sure you can book it is awesome.

There is very little downside risk unless collapse is imminent. But, even with a 3 year payback, you're in good shape.

Normally, I would be skeptical about no increases in MF in 10 years. That means they are either allow the properties to dilapidation or you will be in for a big special assessment fee. But, with a 3 year payback, it just doesn't matter.

posted 08-09-2004 21:26            

quote:

---

Originally posted by BocaBum99:
Normally, I would be skeptical about no increases in MF in 10 years. That means they are either allow the properties to dilapidation or you will be in for a big special assessment fee. But, with a 3 year payback, it just doesn't matter.

---

Also, remember that they do not manage or maintain the resorts. They own units within them, and (I suspect) merely pay maintenance fees to the resort management as would any timeshare owner. I believe that the reason m/fs have not increased is: 1) the annual fees allowed for a substantial profit at the time of initial sale; and 2) they are still actively selling club memberships, thus, creating an interest in keeping m/fs low. They get their profit primarily from the outrageous prices they charge to new buyers.

posted 08-09-2004 21:54               

From their website FAQ's they say "3. What if… I can’t travel in a given year?
Don’t worry! The complete flexibility of your membership even allows you to accumulate your Holiday Credits for use in the following year. There are two options available to you. You can: - Accumulate 20% of your annual Holiday Credit allotment every year throughout the life of your membership… or - Accumulate 100% of your annual Holiday Credit allotment every third year. Accumulation is NOT automatic. It is necessary to advise your Vacation Consultant that you wish to accumulate your Holiday Credits. "

Their explanation also leaves me even further confused in that if you opt to carry over 100% of your credit allotment every third year, what happens to your credits in year 2 of the 3 year cycle if you don't vacation in year two - can you carry over 20% of the year 2 credits to year 3?

I truly appreciate your and other fellow Tugger's insights as I hone my understanding of how RHC works.

posted 08-09-2004 22:54            

quote:

---

Originally posted by MULTIZ321:
HOC - I'm confused about your example of carrying over 10,000 points every 3rd year. According to their website explanation, I would think you'd be able to carry over 15,000.

---

Remember that I'm working with a 10,000 point membership. So 100% and 20% to me works out to 10,000 points and 2,000 points. With a 15,000 point membership, it would work out to 15,000 points and 3,000 points.

quote:

---

Originally posted by MULTIZ321:
Their explanation also leaves me even further confused in that if you opt to carry over 100% of your credit allotment every third year, what happens to your credits in year 2 of the 3 year cycle if you don't vacation in year two - can you carry over 20% of the year 2 credits to year 3?

---

Working with a 15,000 credit membership. If you carry 15,000 points from year 1 to year 2, you will then have 30,000 points. But you have to use or lose 27,000 of them in year two, as you can only carry over 3,000 to year 3. If, on the other hand, you don't carry any over from year 1, or you carry only 3,000 over from year 1 to year 2, you can then carry up to 15,000 over from year 2 to year 3.

Concrete example: my membership carried 10,000 over from year 1 to year 2, and 18,000 points were used to book year 2. I then had 12,000 in year 3. But I had too many vacations in year 3, so I carried over 10,000 points to year 4 and used 20,000 points to book in year 4. But now I have 2,000 points left in year 3 that I have to use by the end of the year or lose them.

Edit: I'm considering buying an extra 1,562 points for $31.24 and booking a studio for one night on New Year's Eve at the Affinia Dumont in New York City. I have one of those $110 round trip fares to New York on hold, leaving the morning of December 31, and returning the evening of January 1. New Year's Eve in Times Square. I can check one more thing off the list.