posted 04-16-2005 07:55               

quote:

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Originally posted by somerville:
What is proposed by PA sounds an awful lot like Equivest Vacation and Travel Club. Ever since Fairfield took over EVTC, administrative costs have increased substantially and are now equal to the annual maintenance fees to the resorts. I know that Worldmark fees are more reasonable, but I don't believe that Fairfield has finished milking that cash cow. After my ETVC experiences, I would not be in favor of any travel club that is not based on deeded weeks and does not allow you to easily remove your week from the club at any time.

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I think in the course of these discussions, we've progressed beyond the concept of buying into club membership by deeding over your week. That would be a hard sell, plus too much disagreement about the value of said deed.

Here's what I'm thinking about now:

1) A group of investors buys a certain number of properties

2) People join the club at a nominal fee (maybe $50 - 100 or so). Memberships limited to the number of weeks owned. (this will be a bit of a problem if some of the ownerships, like points based systems, have a variable number of weeks available, depending on room size, etc).

3) We have some sort of scheduling process to determine what people want (lotteries or rotating priorities for a tie-breaker). Depending on what they reserve, they pay the maintenance fees for that property (plus an add on of 10% or 15% or so).

4) No maintenance fees. If they don't want a property in a given year, they pay nothing. If a different owner wants 2 properties in a given year, they pay 2 fees.

5) Nominal yearly membership fee (between $0 - $100 per year). If they don't pay, we can sell another membership at a nominal fee.

This seems to me a great deal for the member. The tough part is, there's no return for the investor. I gotta think about that more. Yes, we could increase the return by increasing the enrollment fee, yearly membership fees, etc. But then we don't stand out as offering anything different than all the other clubs. Other than a club that owns only premier weeks at premier properties, and all weeks owned are clearly disclosed.

posted 04-16-2005 19:39               

quote:

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Originally posted by PA:
Question, frenchfry,

Do you agree that this is similar to the business model that RHC employs?

Given that RHC has the worst service on the planet, why do you presume that the idea is ok, but not likely to be practical? Don't you realize who you're dealing with here? Do you think us tuggers less intelligent than the brainiacs who run RHC? I do this full time for a living. Many others here, who perhaps don't do this full time, have equal or superior intelligence to the people who run that club. AND, that club is typical of timeshare marketing orgs, in it for the initial quick$, without regard to how it works long term for the user.

I'm not saying I'm ready to jump in with both feet. BUT, if this germ of an idea were to be fully fleshed out, I think it could possibly succeed.

And I assure you that, were I to decide to pursue it full force, I would make sure that it was fleshed out (to the best of my ability) and would make sure that it provided good value to the owners long term.

When a service is designed with the user in mind, it provides a far better service than the typical timeshare developer provides. The more we think this through, the more it begins to sound a lot like the Napster business model. Are you familiar with that model?

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PA, the 1st sentence of your reply starts with unwanted and uncalled for sarcasm. Calling people names is low in my way of looking at things. You may not like what I had to say. Resorting to what you did is in poor taste. Hardly a way to discuss any topic.

I stated an opinion. I simply wished anyone undertaking such an endeavor the best. I still do.

People discussing on these forums should take the high road in duscussing topics. More can get accomplished in such a way.

JMHO of course

frenchieinme

posted 04-16-2005 22:03               

We need to find a way to profitably share our experience. It cost me about $45.00 a night to stay in a nice 1 br apartment while my wife & I vacation (we're not the Marriott type). There has to be a way to package this. Individual Tuggers spend hours searching for deals. What if we pooled our resorces to buy TS's that have a good rent to MF ratio. 500 Tuggers with $2000.00 bucks could buy a lot of timeshare.

posted 04-17-2005 04:22               

It was meant to be a play on words, not a putdown. I'm assuming everyone here uses fake names, or handles, and that these aren't our real names, so I didn't realize it would be offensive to do so. Sorry I hurt your feelings.

posted 04-17-2005 08:58               

quote:

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Originally posted by PA:
Frenchie,

It was meant to be a play on words, not a putdown. I'm assuming everyone here uses fake names, or handles, and that these aren't our real names, so I didn't realize it would be offensive to do so. Sorry I hurt your feelings.

I didn't dislike what you said, and the points were legitimate, and I was attempting to respond to them. If it came across that I didn't consider your points thoughtfully, that wasn't my intent.

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PA,

My fake name on Tug is "frenchieinme". You used it correctly starting your post above (frenchie = frenchieinme because it is part of the original). Everybody has been using this when referring to me. That's the way it should be.

I understand from what you said above you did not mean it to be offensive. I accept that.

That being said, what you are proposing is really quite an endeavor. Doable? Yes. Again, I wish whoever undertakes such an endeavor all the luck. It would be a nice alternative to the existing choices.

JMHO of course

frenchieinme

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Visit our webpage at http://userpages.prexar.com/rhoude

[This message has been edited by frenchieinme (edited 04-17-2005).]

posted 04-17-2005 11:53               

quote:

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Originally posted by somerville:
....However, it would require a lot of capital upfront in addition to the time and effort required to purchase the units.

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If people are convinced that the concept is not only doable, but also would be profitable, gathering the needed capital would not be a problem. I've already been contacted by people who think this would be something they would be interested in, assuming the kinks are ironed out.

posted 04-19-2005 11:06               

quote:

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Originally posted by frenchieinme:
...My fake name on Tug is "frenchieinme". You used it correctly starting your post above (frenchie = frenchieinme because it is part of the original). Everybody has been using this when referring to me. That's the way it should be.

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don't take it personal, Frenchie, "PA" does have a habit of this...he tries to be witty/clever/humerous.

He called me Cap-something, Hat Hair...but I like it best when he says "Your Royal Hat-ness".

He once called me "erudite" and I was grealy offended.

posted 04-19-2005 11:58               

quote:

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Originally posted by Hatrack79:
don't take it personal, Frenchie, "PA" does have a habit of this...he tries to be witty/clever/humerous.

He called me Cap-something, Hat Hair...but I like it best when he says "Your Royal Hat-ness".

He once called me "erudite" and I was grealy offended.

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I'm usually too busy to make my own apologies, so my press secretary Hat on the Cat does so on my behalf. As for my habit of offending others with my brand of wit; you think I write this stuff myself? I have several comedians on staff, I'll have to ask them to tone it down a bit.

posted 04-19-2005 12:19               

quote:

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Originally posted by PA:
...I have several comedians on staff, I'll have to ask them to tone it down a bit.

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Hey, it just so happens that I, myself, am a frustrated out of work comedian....where can I apply?

posted 04-19-2005 12:24               

quote:

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Originally posted by Hatrack79:
Hey, it just so happens that I, myself, am a frustrated out of work comedian....where can I apply?

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posted 04-19-2005 13:44               

quote:

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Originally posted by PA:
I've seen your work. I'll call you, don't call me.

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Ouch, the hurts!

Back to the original topic…

I already own the worlds’ best assortment of timeshares…..I call it “Hatrack-the Club”. You could just take my secret/patented formula and replicate it 7000 times and have a great club.

(of course, my tastes in vacations don’t include blue season in Arkansas or such things….)

Seriously, this has a lot of merit. There are folks who shop for the best stocks/bonds and invest other peoples’ money in them…we call them mutual fund managers’ and apparently they’re worth their multi-million dollar salaries. Why not have PA and a few other TUG experts, as the HOA board or our club, continually shopping the entire TS resale market and buying any/all desirable weeks at wholesale. Sell Club memberships at cost + 30% and everybody wins. When the club gets to be the size of RCI, then PA can have a raise. There could be one arm of the HOA that just buys/sells for a profit.

Maybe this needs to be stock in a public company and not a deed? How hard would it be to make this “REIT” entity public so you could buy/sell your “points” for $8 on Scottrade or Etrade and avoid the $300 closing costs?

posted 04-19-2005 14:02               

How about we forget the exchanging all together and just move into rentals and resales?
We get a group of Tug investors, slowly build good "underpriced" inventory.
While this inventory is being marketed for sale. The members can either use the weeks for the cost of MF's. Or the group can rent out the unused weeks.

Do you know how many time I find ridiculously low prices on timeshare, but have no capital?

There are many timeshare resellers that come up in google searches that get very good resales prices for there sales. I would guess it costs some $$ to be in the top serach results for Google.
These are the customers that leave a t/s presentation.. search google and see an add for 1/2 the price of the developer and jump on it.

There could be a 3/4 majority group vote before anything is bought. White smoke if its a buy, black smoke we don't ?

Most individuals do not want the risk or yearly MF's associated with a lot of inventory.

posted 04-19-2005 14:47               

quote:

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Originally posted by Hatrack79:
Maybe this needs to be stock in a public company and not a deed? How hard would it be to make this "REIT" entity public so you could buy/sell your "points" for $8 on Scottrade or Etrade and avoid the $300 closing costs?

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MROP is a corporation, and therefore one buys a share to join, rather than buying a real estate interest. As a result, there are no deeds to register and no closing costs. ORE does charge a fee for transfering a MROP share, but it's a lot cheaper than a typical timeshare closing (it's $85.) I'd assume it's faster and easier, too, although I haven't bought MROP. This sort of timeshare club would be way too small to trade publicly (at least at first), but that isn't needed to sell shares.

Boca, can a REIT sell shares, or does joining a REIT involve buying a real estate interest and having a closing (filing deeds, etc.)?

posted 04-19-2005 15:10               

quote:

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Originally posted by Hatrack79:
...(of course, my tastes in vacations don’t include blue season in Arkansas or such things….)

OK, so I'll forget the idea of adding off-season arkansas. (Darn, and I was so sure it was a good idea, since we can get them cheap.)

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posted 04-19-2005 15:14               

quote:

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Originally posted by calihockey33:
PA,

How about we forget the exchanging all together and just move into rentals and resales?

Currently, I see it being beneficial to do both. That's open for debate, though.

We get a group of Tug investors, slowly build good "underpriced" inventory.
While this inventory is being marketed for sale. The members can either use the weeks for the cost of MF's. Or the group can rent out the unused weeks.

This is what I'm considering. BUT, the problem is, all it would take is one careless TUGGER to allow us to rent out a week that he had previously banked, and our reputation is kaput. So I'm considering how to protect the renters.

Do you know how many time I find ridiculously low prices on timeshare, but have no capital?

There are many timeshare resellers that come up in google searches that get very good resales prices for there sales. I would guess it costs some $$ to be in the top serach results for Google.
These are the customers that leave a t/s presentation.. search google and see an add for 1/2 the price of the developer and jump on it.

There could be a 3/4 majority group vote before anything is bought. White smoke if its a buy, black smoke we don't ?

Most individuals do not want the risk or yearly MF's associated with a lot of inventory.

All good points, all being thought about now. Any and all ideas from you or anyone is welcome.

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posted 04-19-2005 15:53               

PROBLEM

Timeshare rentals don't bring much money. Very few timeshares rent for much more than the maintenance fee, leaving very little for marketing costs and profit. CENDANT, one the largest companies in the hospitality industry, gets LESS than maintenance fee for many of their rentals. Granted, they don't pay the maintenance fees on them, but that doesn't mean they are happy to leave extra $$ on the table. So that means they haven't cracked the code, even though their mailing list and customer base numbers in the millions. Even if we have a shiny website, and pay enough to get in the top google position, all that means is instead of a million websites renting timeshares, there will be a million and one. We won't be able to command a premium with top google placement, we'll just be splitting the marginally profital market further. An arguement can be made that the opposite would occur, that more sites renting properties drives the cost DOWN. So what's wanted is a better way of targetting people who rent lodging, but don't currently search the internet for timeshare lodging.

QUESTION

Who would we target? How would we reach them? How would we build the credibility to make them comfortable giving us their credit card number and reserving a room.

ANOTHER PROBLEM

The general public that rents lodging is comfortable booking in advance, with the comfort that they can cancel on short notice and not lose their money.

QUESTION

posted 04-19-2005 16:47               

quote:

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Originally posted by Judy321:
MROP is a corporation, and therefore one buys a share to join, rather than buying a real estate interest. As a result, there are no deeds to register and no closing costs. ORE does charge a fee for transfering a MROP share, but it's a lot cheaper than a typical timeshare closing (it's $85.) I'd assume it's faster and easier, too, although I haven't bought MROP. This sort of timeshare club would be way too small to trade publicly (at least at first), but that isn't needed to sell shares.

Boca, can a REIT sell shares, or does joining a REIT involve buying a real estate interest and having a closing (filing deeds, etc.)?

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posted 04-19-2005 17:12               

1) I don't like the idea of one for one trading. That's an administrative nightmare in choosing who gets what. And, there is no money in it.

2) I don't like any idea that doesn't have a clear margin involved. So, where would a Vacation Club get scale that I can't do on my own? Some examples are: a) buying 20 weeks at an obvious good value points resort. Converting all to points and then selling for a profit. b) Buying lots of resorts that have a great rental return and plowing the profits back into more properties to grow the asset base. Must have greater than 15% expected return on each property c) Creating a membership where all members get the equivalent of Platinum VIP memberships in every club like DVC, FF, WorldMark, Marriott, SVO, HGVC, etc. In other words combining buying power and deliver that power to all members.

I would pay a nominal membership fee to eliminate the 1-in-3/4 rule for lots of resorts. And, getting Platinum VIP benefits in FF without having to spend $20k on my own would be very valuable to me

3) Conversely, if I can do it on my own, I really don't need the club. And, neither do most Tuggers. However, there is an opportunity to use economies of scale to deliver the capabilities that the expert Tuggers get to the average Tugger. That has some value. And, if the asset base were large enough, it could do a lot of direct exchanges and save on exchange fees.

There is something here. We just need to keep working to nail it down.

posted 04-19-2005 17:27               

I don't see this club having value to TUGGERS, other than those TUGGERS that are looking to advertise to the market but can't afford to do so on their own. Let's take an example. Let's say you own a nice worldmark non-hk account. Enough for 5 weeks per year.

You can't exactly afford to advertise on monday night feetball. But I own DVC, someone else owns FF Plat, someone else owns ? Well, you get the idea.

posted 04-20-2005 16:16               

quote:

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Originally posted by PA:
BB,

I don't see this club having value to TUGGERS, other than those TUGGERS that are looking to advertise to the market but can't afford to do so on their own. Let's take an example. Let's say you own a nice worldmark non-hk account. Enough for 5 weeks per year.

You can't exactly afford to advertise on monday night feetball. But I own DVC, someone else owns FF Plat, someone else owns ? Well, you get the idea.

However, TUGGERS CAN'T be our market, or we'll go bankrupt. We HAVE to go after the general public renting lodging, who are used to paying $150 - $250 per night for a nice hotel room in a resort location.

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If that's the target market, then we need to think really big. That would be fun to go after.

I agree that TUG is not the right market. First of all, too small. Second of all, too little margin.

posted 04-20-2005 17:40               

quote:

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Originally posted by JeffV:
You need to call Warren Buffet because you need someone with REALLY, REALLY deep pockets.

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You might be surprised at:

1) How much money investors might be willing to risk
2) How little money might be needed to start. Many Tuggers are doing this on a smaller scale right now. And there's nothing to that says we need to go after the entire country at one time. We could easily select 1 or 2 target markets (say Dallas and Atlanta, for example, and use direct mail and/or Clear Channel Communication radio ads. As many channels as CCC owns, you can cover a pretty broad market in a selected area with just this one media. And then, if it's successful, grow from there. Also, we could supplement it while we're getting started by renting through the traditional timeshare rental channels. The margin isn't as good there (Redweek, ebay, etc) but the cost of promoting the product is much cheaper. The key is to add inventory in proportion to the amount of promotion expenditures.

Just a thought, we're still just kicking this around. Many successful companies have begun with less.

posted 04-21-2005 04:38               

quote:

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Originally posted by PA:

You might be surprised at:

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