posted 08-14-2002 07:55            

If RCI is renting HOA space they would, in my view, need the contractual authority to do that granted by the HOA. Each person can check their own HOA regulations etc. to see if that is permitted. If it is not permitted, and RCI is doing it, action needs to be taken against the HOA and the RCI.

If RCI is renting out surplus space that has been banked by them they would also need contractual authority to do it. We can all check our rules of membership to see if we granted them that right. If we did not grant them that authority via contract, it is my view that a contractual action against RCI should be considered.

If RCI is renting out developer space, we need to know the legal relationship between the developer, the owner, and the HOA. If none of these relationships authorize the developer to make space available to RCI for rental, legal action against the developer should be contemplated.

posted 08-14-2002 09:23            

quote:

---

Originally posted by bigeyes1: I have John Barrow's (who is the Director Of Communications at RCI) permission to post his response here regarding renting out weeks: ... Thus, since we have instituted this rental program, we have been able to add literally thousands of additional vacation weeks to members, weeks that they are able to rent at up to $200 below the public rental cost... weeks that allow members to take vacations at resorts where they may not have had sufficient trading power to access via exchange. Sincerely, John R. Barrows Director, Communications RCI

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Am I the only one that picked up on the bolded comment above? See that's my main gripe with RCI: I make spacebank deposits with weeks that are coded red in their catalog, yet I cannot exchange into another "red" resort because I apparently do not have sufficient trading power to do so. (or in some cases, I have the GC block, but nothing comes up to tell me that that's my problem -- all I know is I see no availability on where I want to go, when I want to go). Then to add insult to injury, they tell me that rentals give me extra benefits by allowing me to rent that same red week from RCI? H’unh?

What exactly am I missing? (Note: that was a rhetorical question).

What I’m apparently “missing” is the mysterious, closely guarded secret formula that RCI uses to decide what my resort’s trading power is –- and what it is for every other resort. I could buy additional timeshares and spacebank those weeks, or buy surplus spacebanked weeks and have them transferred into my account, ad nauseam –- and I’m up to 7 weeks now –- just trying to understand how the system works, but what's the point? We never really know what we are buying/getting? Some thought they could use the points system as an arbiter of what any given week was worth, but of course, points are subject to change without notice. So, the truth is, what was a great trader two years ago may trade for squat today with no real explanation (witness: the now non-existent trading power of non summer Blue Whale weeks, Fern's Imperial week, and JLB's weeks disappearing trade power that he wrote about extensively on another thread). Check my profile: of the 7 weeks I own, 5 are red, 2 are white; all but the Blue Whale are gold crown, all but one are 2 bedrooms. I spacebank that maximum in advance I can (from 10 months to two years out), yet, I can’t pull exchanges in Hawaii, winter in the Caribbean or South Florida (Sanibel/Captiva). I couldn’t even pull The Manhattan Club when they did that bulk space bank last year winter.

I just want to be able to play on a level playing field. I want to know what the rules are and not have them changed, willy nilly by RCI (just so they can increase their stockholder’s profits) whenever they see fit. Is that too much to ask?

I want to stop being lied to. Since we want facts. Here's one: RCI VC to me: "Buy 5 years RCI membership now for $84/year to protect you from inflation and price increases". I bite. I buy 10 years worth. In 5 years (since 1998), the annual membership fee has not increased at all. Point of fact, there are numerous deals that are actually lower, today, than that $84/year rate. What has increased is the cost of domestic ($114 or $118, 5 years ago, now $128) and international exchanges ($150's 5 years ago, now $169), the cost of bonus weeks/bonus vacations, and the cost of guest certificates ($40 a few years ago, $49 now) -- one of the biggest scams (IMHO) to sucker money out of members there ever was, since it doesn't protect us from damages our 'guests' may inflict on a unit during their time there. So I'm paying $49 for a piece of paper for what? To allow them to check-in easily? Nope, hasn't happened. Half (and yes I can prove this) of my guests never received their guest certificates and I've had to call the resorts while they are standing there trying to check-in and tell the resort staff that yes, I did pay for a guest certificate, and yes, the people standing in front of them are my guests.

Okay, I’m done. Just wish I now felt better for having done so.

posted 08-14-2002 09:24         

RCI Terms and Conditions, page 570, RCI Directory of Resorts

C)By depositing Vacation Ownership in the RCI SPACEBANK, you relinquish ALL RIGHTS to use that Vacation Ownership and agree that such deposited Vacation Ownership may be used by RCI to conduct changes, inspection visits, PROMOTIONS AND FOR OTHER PURPOSES AT RCI'S DISCRETION.

"Promotions and for other purposes at RCI's DISCRETION" is the most important sentence here.

Our hands are tied when we join RCI and agree to their terms and conditions as to how they use our spacebanked weeks. In my opinion there is NOTHING we can do as to HOW RCI uses our weeks as long as we are RCI members and have relinquished our spacebanked weeks to them.

They have told us loud and clear in their terms and conditions.

posted 08-14-2002 09:47         

quote:

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Originally posted by BDK:
.....What I’m apparently “missing” is the mysterious, closely guarded secret formula that RCI uses to decide what my resort’s trading power is –- and what it is for every other resort....

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We have been told numerous times by a popular poster on this board that the very fact that trading power is kept secret is what makes Weeks a much fairer system than Points. If the trading power were known, developers would do what they can to get their trading power increased.

[I know that I shouldn't have posted this -- this topic is hot enough already -- but I still shake my head in amazement that someone would rationalize -- sorry, judgmental word -- argue that consumers are better off not knowing what it is that they are buying. I understand your frustration.]

------------------
Owner since 1996 (a paltry one)
TUG member since 1997

posted 08-14-2002 10:03            

quote:

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Originally posted by Roger:
We have been told numerous times by a popular poster on this board that the very fact that trading power is kept secret is what makes Weeks a much fairer system than Points. If the trading power were known, developers would do what they can to get their trading power increased.

[I know that I shouldn't have posted this -- this topic is hot enough already -- but I still shake my head in amazement that someone would rationalize -- sorry, judgmental word -- argue that consumers are better off not knowing what it is that they are buying. I understand your frustration.]

---

At the risk of stepping into the same pile...

I LIKE the "unfairness" of the Weeks system. It makes the market inefficient. Inefficient markets reward those who have superior knowledge and experience. The more we know, the more we can exploit inefficiencies in the market to our personal benefit. That, in many ways, is the entire purpose of TUG!

posted 08-14-2002 10:03            

thanks for getting the following information:
"By depositing Vacation Ownership in the RCI SPACEBANK, you relinquish ALL RIGHTS to use that Vacation Ownership and agree that such deposited Vacation Ownership may be used by RCI to conduct changes, inspection visits, PROMOTIONS AND FOR OTHER PURPOSES AT RCI'S DISCRETION."

posted 08-14-2002 10:06            

quote:

---

Originally posted by pgnewarkboy:
It would seem that this provision of the membership agreement should be made widely known.

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Yeah, maybe RCI should include it in their directory and mail it to every single member, every year. Maybe they should put it on their Web site. Maybe ...

Oh. Wait. They already do that?

Silly me...

So if RCI gets 200 deposits for some crummy resort and only 100 requests for those deposited weeks, you think they should just eat the deposits? If they make them available as bonus vacations to RCI members and RCI members still don't want them, then tough luck, RCI? Is that what you want?

Just trying to clarify...

posted 08-14-2002 10:22            

The pricing discrepancies and accusations were proven in past posts by several people including myself. We posted the prices quoted on each site. It was done many many times. I suspect that is why there is a blanket generalized accusation now. I am sure many of those posts have been deleted as many were quite awhile ago. I am not going to attempt to try and find them as I don't have the time.

However, based upon your current research, it looks like RCI has cleaned up its act at least in the cases you have posted. RCI does change once in awhile and sometimes in response to what is posted on this bbs.

I am not going to make a generalization by saying RCI does not do it anymore or that there has never been pricing discrepancy that has been described on this thread. I have seen proof they have done it in the past. Now I see some proof that they are not doing it at this point in time. Will it happen in the future? I don't know, only RCI can tell us that with their actions.

RCI does have a PR problem though and it will not just go away. And they continue to upset their main customer base, the paid members. And they (Cendant) also continue to expand their rental venues for timeshare properties. Where this is going is still only speculation for the most part. It won't be solved until there is some kind of lawsuit against RCI, based on what I don't know, and then when there is some discovery of evidence. RCI is not going to volunteer any evidence to prove any accusation against them. And I doubt that they will provide any evidence to prove their innocence unless some one forces them to do it.

On another topic, I do have irrefutable proof of RCI using bait & switch tactics with their email promotions regarding what used to be known as Vacation Escapes, when they mixed rentals and "true" VE's together in their promotions. This was a real problem on their website at one point in time. They have since seemed to clear up the problem by clearly distinguishing rentals and promotional bonus vacations. I have all of this evidence printed out and electronically filed and am working with the California Attourney Generals office on this. I will let you know where it goes as it is a slow process.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dani:
Ed and Marina..thank you for posting this information. The accusation that armed services members were obtaining weeks at a cheaper rate than RCI's own members was so often repeated here that I took for granted that this was indeed a fact. I should have looked for myself. This is a reminder of a basic fact of life...just because something is oft repeated does not make it so.

Trish...good work. I'm keeping my fingers crossed regarding the possiblity of a "guest appearance" by RCI.

---

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John

posted 08-14-2002 10:31            

There are still price discrepancies. As I pointed out earlier, that's the way of the world. Where does it say that RCI agrees to give RCI members the best price on every rental?

posted 08-14-2002 10:51            

What I want is clarity of policy and disclosure of policy. After I get that, I can decide if I want to remain with RCI. As it stands, I don't know how they allocate deposits for rental. A statement from a "representative" is worthless. A statement, in writing, from somebody authorized to make the statement is like money in the bank.

posted 08-14-2002 10:54            

I never said that RCI did say that. If a business wants to do that and can legally then there is nothing to stop them. If they want to upset (or p/o) its main customer base, its bread and butter customers, that is their choice. If I was running a business I am not sure I would want to upset the people that pay my bills, I would want to keep them very happy.

The only way that the practice will stop is if their existing members complain about it and RCI/Cendant gets bad PR over it (which is what is happening), or members quit and then RCI/Cendant starts losing money from this strategy. RCI/Cendant will do whatever it can to make more money, that is the bottom line for them. So what if people complain about it to RCI or on this BBS or any BBS for that matter? They are consumers (members) trying to protect their best interests and get a better deal. Just because a company can legally screw them does not make it right nor the best strategy. And they have a right to speak out about it.

quote:

---

Originally posted by EdB:
John,

There are still price discrepancies. As I pointed out earlier, that's the way of the world. Where does it say that RCI agrees to give RCI members the best price on every rental?

Ed

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------------------
John

posted 08-14-2002 11:13            

quote:

---

Originally posted by JP:
benefits touted as taking "extra vacations" at "up to $200 below cost" to the general public.

---

Scroll back up and read the examples Marina and I posted. That's exactly what you're getting. In some cases, the savings were even higher.

posted 08-14-2002 11:28         

I quoted, verbatim, their terms and conditions as listed in their RCI Resort Directory. Many people seemed to have just IGNORED this. If you don't like the way RCI is doing business.......CANCEL your membership! It's as simple and as easy as a phone call. Why stay with them if you are a dissatisfied customer?

You, me, nor anyone else is going to change RCI's business strategies unless RCI wants to change their business strategies and all the b-------g in the world is not going to change that!!! We can't tell them how to run their business just because we're members of their exchange services. It was our choice to join, they didn't force us.

posted 08-14-2002 11:49            

quote:

---

Therefore, RCI began offering limited programs to non-members. These programs specifically target a portion of the space that is historically unused by our members for exchange vacations or Bonus Vacations.

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I have a question for you. Is this or is this not true? This was from a statement made by RCI. Have you found this to be the case? Quite frankly, I have not.

To be fair, recently I believe RCI has adjusted its bonus vacations program and I seem to see more bonus vacations rather than rentals. But during the summer months most of what WE ALL saw were rentals at outrageous prices.

Rita

posted 08-14-2002 11:53            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pat_Rita:
To be fair, recently I believe RCI has adjusted its bonus vacations program and I seem to see more bonus vacations rather than rentals. But during the summer months most of what WE ALL saw were rentals at outrageous prices.

---

posted 08-14-2002 11:54            

Guess RCI doesn't think us Australian members can afford the Rentals or higher priced Bonus Vacations

posted 08-14-2002 12:43            

You advocate that we all signed the agreement with RCI that allows them to do as they wish with our weeks. If you are familiar with most contractual agreements, there are always caveats such as this. For example, a lease I am working on has included that the landlord might enter the apartment in emergency situations as judged by the landlord alone. For him to come in every morning while you are showering under teh auspices of an emergency might be in theory contractually legal but highly arguable in any court of law. We are questioning the ethics of RCI in this entire process. Yes, we agreed that RCI "may" use our weeks for promotions, etc but the article is included as a article under the title "Depositing Vacation Ownership and Requesting an Exchange" which includes 10 key points which are all clearly referring to the process of trading weeks, this caveat is a reminder that there may be exceptions where the weeks may be used for other reasons. Similar to the landlord who can enter for a fire or if he hears a scream or cries of help from an apartment. The contract and all of the wording around this phrase implies the perspective that this is exceptional.

EdB, you have a wonderful perspective of how corporations should treat there customers. Make the most money, screw the customer at will. Generally businesses do not last long under thse terms of reference. Most successful corporations have a focus to offere excellent value and maximize profits. Last I saw at the RCI website is that they are an exchange company. They have no obligation to offer their fees paying customers the lowest price, as you say welcome to the real world. I just think common sense indicates that is good business.

But the bigger issue is that as you say, RCI have inventory so they should be able to use it. Where do you think they got that inventory. You say that what a horrible loss it is for RCI to get 200 units from some crummy resort where there are only 100 requests. Tragic for RCI! Hmmm, now please help me on this one. 200 members paid $84 for the year to RCI, thats almost $17,000 for RCI and they now have inventory. Now 100 exchanges in and lets assume then 100 people got what they were looking for so 200 units traded total at $180, thats $36K more. Total $54k from that crummy resort ann now they have a crisis. They have 100 unused units.

Now we all know what happened! 100 owners paid RCI their fees and the m/f's to the resort and never got a unit. So now RCI has a problem. 100 unhappy members. So they offer the units that they had available at the crummy resort to military people, etc and pick up $249. Fabulous, those unhappy owners now get part of their m/f's back to offset their costs. Ooops, no, they paid the m/f so the resort doesn't care if the unit is occupied, in fact may prefer it since the unit doesn't need a maid or any services. So RCI determines that they have a big problem. 100 unhappy owners and RCI had better maximize their return since they owned all those units.

Darn, again I am confused why RCI are needing to maximize their profits since they neither own the unit or paid for them, thats us in this picture of stupid. They have the member fees which pay the bills (if they don't, then raise the fees). They have the trading fees for the 100 trades that were made. Oh again, now I get it, they want the money from my unit which I have agreed to give to them and can never get back. Its not like 3 weeks before the week expires I can just say, give it back since its not going to be used, RCI say its theirs. They have incurred costs in making this week available so you can't have it back. No, those costs were not provided by your membership fees (ok, yes they were but who wants to look at facts, in this example of poor old RCI with a problem), but the week is no longer yours. Hmmm.

Its a bad quandary for RCI and then comes the internet to provide various examples of how OBX summer weeks are not being used. And then comes the PR guy at RCI officially saying that a red week is not equal and the sell offs help us weeks with the crummy reds get them at such a great rate. So I may want to stay in the OBX in July but my crummy week of which there are 100 of us looking for places to go, just can't get in. But were red weeks, said RCI prior to this public admission that red is not all created equal. I find this public admission wonderful for someone such as John in his legal actions. See the RCI guy SAID we can get weeks that we might not otherwise be able to get. His statement is ridiculous if as RCI allow the t/s people to say, all red weeks are equal. We know its not true but this is RCI's public admission of such.

posted 08-14-2002 12:45         

quote:

---

Originally posted by EdB:
...Inefficient markets reward those who have superior knowledge and experience. The more we know, the more we can exploit inefficiencies in the market to our personal benefit. That, in many ways, is the entire purpose of TUG!

---

This is pretty much dead on target. It would not be totally inaccurate to say that the main reason I joined TUG was that I realized that it was a rigged game and I needed to get some insider knowledge to protect my investment. (Put differently, self defense)

Having said that, I also have never felt totally comfortable participating in a game in which some people are put at an advantage at the expense of others. Thus, I cheer on anytime RCI, II, or anyone else makes moves to level the field. I'm of the school that one of the great equalizers was online trading. You didn't need to make talking timeshare on TUG your favorite hobby in order to figure out that you could get trade X with your unit and that was a better deal than what RCI had been offering you on the phone.

In the same line, I hope RCI, II, and any other trade company makes their trading power an open book. Yes, I know about the argument from our friend that trading power constantly changes and thus can't be reported. That makes about as much sense as saying that temperatures constantly change so there is no way to report on the day's weather.

------------------
Owner since 1996 (a paltry one)
TUG member since 1997

posted 08-14-2002 13:11            

quote:

---

Originally posted by GinGin:
JP, there is NO inequity. It states in terms and conditions that they (RCI) will use your banked week at their OWN discretion. It's THEIRS when you bank it, it's NOT yours anymore. Tell me where the inequity is? Why is this so hard to understand?

If you have a bone to pick with RCI's terms and conditions, do your b---hing directly to RCI? You letting off steam here and ranting and raving about RCI accomplishes absolutely nothing.

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John

We get to vote once every two years. Big money votes several times every day. Who really influences our politicians? Two names will describe the need for immediate fair and comprehensive Campaign Finance Reform - ENRON and Marc Rich!!!!!