posted 02-20-2005 15:45               

Good grief. lighten up- I'm not out to compete with you or anyone else. Like you, I could care less if you or others believe me or not. I also could care less what any of us do for a living. I have no dog in this thread for 'points vs. weeks'. My original post notes that I find the strong arguements that points (or weeks) to be clearly superior is rather silly. I was simply noting that for us I could accomplish my goals w/o exchange. In fact, exchange makes no sense for us. My rentals are where we travel anyway so it is no problem to rent my 4 units out each year. We almost always have repeat business anyway. I was simply noting 6 weeks of vacation for us at low capital outlay and low yearly cost.

I presented data. You state that you can clearly develop a more efficient economic model but hide behind statements like 'go through and search for the data' if we want to see. No thanks, I don't have time and I don't care to if I did have time. Your business is all yours, I'm not hunting for your 'trade secrets'.

At this point, I don't think I will revisit this thread. I hope your system works for you. I did not realize we were in a pissing contest here.

------------------
Steve H. Barr
Raleigh, NC

Assorted summer Daytona and North Carolina beach weeks.

posted 02-20-2005 19:06               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Steve Barr:
So try that with FF points, RCI or II (check the points required for Bike Week at FF in Daytona, RCI, II, etc.), WM, Sunterra, etc. Be sure to include yearly membership and exchange fees.

---

Steve,

I didn't notice your post. Someone sent me an email so I decided to come back to this thread.

I find your claim that you didn't want to make this a competition laughable. What is the above quote intended as if not a statement that what you do is not possible by a point system? Who was the one who put a title on the table? You were the one who made this a competition.

All I was doing was correcting your misconception that doing what you do is not possible with a point system. You clearly imply that it can't be done and ask for proof. Well, lots of Tuggers know it can be done. And, it's not a secret. It's clearly published on TUG for all to see.

posted 02-20-2005 19:20               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elan:

My comment was actually directed more toward Steve. I know your purchases are relatively recent, Boca.

The point to be made is that I may have bought at XYZ Resort before the XYZ Lake Boat Races became the spectacle that they are today, allowing me to now rent my 5 XYZ Resort weeks for 10 times their MF's. But that was just good timing on my part, not an economic model that can be replicated, because the same weeks at XYZ Resort would now cost many times what I paid.

Hope that makes things more clear.

---

Okay, I understand. One of the advantages of point systems is that they are a more a tradable commodity than weeks are (i.e. convertable to cash or a valuable timeshare interval). Whereas, as you mention, Easter week falls in a different week each year. So, if you own week 12 one year, it may rent great if that happens to be Easter week. Most of the time it won't, so it's value is highly variable.

posted 02-21-2005 07:01            

quote:

---

Originally posted by cz:
Jim, not only can that be done but it is already being done right now at a greater cost efficiency than before by a fair amount of knownlegdeable Tuggers.

Note how Boca plays it very close to his vest and does not list any of his timeshare ownerships in his profile? I am sure he has good reasons!

It takes a bit of work but some of us are having a lot of great fun with our (my retirement) hobbie and enjoy timeshare vacations more than fully paid for by our timeshare hobby-addiction.

After 4 plus years of ownerships and due to flipping few ownerships for profits, (and upgrading) we now have comparably little money of our own invested in our 6 core timeshares that produce most of our rentals and produced about 750,000 low cost RCI Points in 2004.

The RCI Points Partners is program that is one that has saved us a lot of money so far.

But to each there own way of timesharing and what ever floats their boat.

Bruce

---

Bruce, I'm reasonably aware of the efficiency of RCI Points. My first purchase, due to the wisdom imparted by Hatrack, PA, Joe M, and other resident Points experts was an RCI Points purchase. I didn't work the system as much as I could have, and I'm not a chiseler, but I ended up with a net recurring cost of roughly $250-$300/week for vacationing in 2BR units in prime season in the places I'm most likely to go. That's good enough for me. I realize I could reduce this considerably with Points for deposit, rentals, and other methods, but to be perfectly honest, timesharing isn't that interesting to me. I'd rather spend what free time I have playing with my kids, getting my handicap back down into single digits, or getting speeding tickets in the Lotus.

As I mentioned in my follow-up post, the point I was trying to make is that there are a few Tuggers that happened into a great deal a few years ago, and seem to want to rub everyone elses noses in the fact that they can vacation so cheaply. While I think it's great for them, I don't think that it's representative of a current "model" for timeshare vacationing.

Jim

posted 02-21-2005 11:09               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elan:
...or getting speeding tickets in the Lotus.

---

posted 02-21-2005 12:57               

I think it's great that other members have devised ways to cut their net costs below mine or even turn a profit with their units. I have no doubt that your systems work very well for you and congratulate your efforts.

But I do question the validity of some of the cost per point figures I have seen.

When I consider my ongoing cost per RCI Point I use a very simple calculation; I divide my total maintenence fees by the number of Points received.

I notice that others seem to be using a more complicated method to arrive at their cost per point. I believe, but do not know for certain, that these other methods involve using rental income to offset maintenence fees. I will therefore pose a hypothetical situation for your consideration so that you understand my concern regarding some cost per point computations.

I own two units at Crystal Gardens resort. The fees for each unit are $300 per year or $600 total. I can convert either into 40000 RCI Points or rent them (either through the resort or by my own advertising) for $500 net each.

What is my cost per RCI Point?

A) It is .75 cents per point = $600/80000

B) I rent one unit and take the other in points. Now I am $100 out of pocket and have 40000 points. My cost per point is $100/40000 = .25 cents.

C) Now wait, let's reconsider the answer just above. That week I converted to points could have generated another $500 rental. Therefore, I gave up $500 to get those 40000 points. My cost per point is $500/40000 = 1.25 cents.

posted 02-21-2005 15:50               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elan:
Bruce, I'm reasonably aware of the efficiency of RCI Points. My first purchase, due to the wisdom imparted by Hatrack, PA, Joe M, and other resident Points experts was an RCI Points purchase. I didn't work the system as much as I could have, and I'm not a chiseler, but I ended up with a net recurring cost of roughly $250-$300/week for vacationing in 2BR units in prime season in the places I'm most likely to go. That's good enough for me. I realize I could reduce this considerably with Points for deposit, rentals, and other methods, but to be perfectly honest, timesharing isn't that interesting to me. I'd rather spend what free time I have playing with my kids, getting my handicap back down into single digits, or getting speeding tickets in the Lotus.

As I mentioned in my follow-up post, the point I was trying to make is that there are a few Tuggers that happened into a great deal a few years ago, and seem to want to rub everyone elses noses in the fact that they can vacation so cheaply. While I think it's great for them, I don't think that it's representative of a current "model" for timeshare vacationing.

Jim

BTW, I am not stating that this describes Steve's situation. I have no idea if his "model" of Florida weeks can be replicated today, but I do think it's great that what he has works so well for him.

---

Hey Jim,

First of all, you've got your priorities straight. You should want to spend more time with your children than on timesharing. There are other sickos that have their priorities wrong, like me.

The most interesting thing about timesharing to me is that it is constantly changing. There will always be deals. People just need to pay attention and evolve as the rules change.

posted 02-21-2005 17:36               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joe M:
I own two units at Crystal Gardens resort. The fees for each unit are $300 per year or $600 total. I can convert either into 40000 RCI Points or rent them (either through the resort or by my own advertising) for $500 net each.

What is my cost per RCI Point?

A) It is .75 cents per point = $600/80000

B) I rent one unit and take the other in points. Now I am $100 out of pocket and have 40000 points. My cost per point is $100/40000 = .25 cents.

C) Now wait, let's reconsider the answer just above. That week I converted to points [b]could have generated another $500 rental. Therefore, I gave up $500 to get those 40000 points. My cost per point is $500/40000 = 1.25 cents.[/i]

I feel that once we move from the simple calculation shown in case A to the discounting of some rental income in case B that it is then also reasonable to consider the foregone rental income in case C.[/B]

---

Joe,

All three of your cost accounting methods are legitimate. You just need to be explicit in what you include vs. not.

I would label each method as follows:

A) Annual cost per point

B) Effective cost per point

C) Opportunity cost per point

What you didn't include was option D, which is Total cost of ownership per point. That would include everything in A, but add the cost of invested capital and the expense associated with closing costs and any other one time fees.

posted 02-21-2005 20:02            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joe M:
Your UserName for TUG suddenly makes perfect sense to me. I bet I know what model Lotus you drive.

---

posted 02-22-2005 16:55               

quote:

---

Originally posted by BocaBum99:

You just need to be explicit in what you include vs. not.

---

I agree that we need to be explicit when we claim a particular cost per point here on TUG. I do not think we need labels for different computations, we only need fuller disclosure on how a particular value is derived. But I have seen some instances where fairly low values (or negative values) are quoted without explanation.

The questions regarding cost per point often come from people considering points for the first time. They are usually looking for simple answers to questions such as "Is $300 per year decent fee for 50k RCI Points?" In these cases I feel that the default valuation should be the simplest one possible. In this case, that would be .6 cents per point.

If lower cost per point options are offered I feel that they should be clearly explained. This explanation should be at least as clear as my example above. I don't think it benefits the person asking the question if lower figures are quoted as if they were results of the same simple computation.

posted 02-22-2005 20:40            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joe M:

The questions regarding cost per point often come from people considering points for the first time. They are usually looking for simple answers to questions such as "Is $300 per year decent fee for 50k RCI Points?" In these cases I feel that the default valuation should be the simplest one possible. In this case, that would be .6 cents per point.

---

Where do the the RCI fees Annual Membership and Reservation fees fit into the maintenance calculation ?

posted 02-22-2005 21:34               

quote:

---

Originally posted by dcwcce:

Where do the the RCI fees Annual Membership and Reservation fees fit into the maintenance calculation ?

---

Those are constant values which do not vary from resort to resort. You can certainly include them if you wish, but they will not help differentiate between several options at different resorts.

posted 02-27-2005 08:03               

In this case I've found more inventory in the WEEKS accounts. So, I am a happy camper in this regard.

Additionally, the cost of buying a week with my RCI points was only $79, vis a vis the weeks account at $149.

posted 02-27-2005 08:07               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joe M:
I own RCI Points and have used points for deposit. I feel very much as Jim described in his post above. That is, I am getting better value from my timeshares and vacationing in some very nice resorts at a very reasonable cost, and that's about as far as I am willing to go with the system.

I think it's great that other members have devised ways to cut their net costs below mine or even turn a profit with their units. I have no doubt that your systems work very well for you and congratulate your efforts.

But I do question the validity of some of the cost per point figures I have seen.

When I consider my ongoing cost per RCI Point I use a very simple calculation; I divide my total maintenence fees by the number of Points received.

I notice that others seem to be using a more complicated method to arrive at their cost per point. I believe, but do not know for certain, that these other methods involve using rental income to offset maintenence fees. I will therefore pose a hypothetical situation for your consideration so that you understand my concern regarding some cost per point computations.

I own two units at Crystal Gardens resort. The fees for each unit are $300 per year or $600 total. I can convert either into 40000 RCI Points or rent them (either through the resort or by my own advertising) for $500 net each.

What is my cost per RCI Point?

A) It is .75 cents per point = $600/80000

B) I rent one unit and take the other in points. Now I am $100 out of pocket and have 40000 points. My cost per point is $100/40000 = .25 cents.

C) Now wait, let's reconsider the answer just above. That week I converted to points [b]could have generated another $500 rental. Therefore, I gave up $500 to get those 40000 points. My cost per point is $500/40000 = 1.25 cents.

I feel that once we move from the simple calculation shown in case A to the discounting of some rental income in case B that it is then also reasonable to consider the foregone rental income in case C.[/B]

---

... and that is why CZ and others own UDIs at Christmas Mountain. With the UDIs, a red week can be reserved and rented out to cover the yearly maintenance fees. THEN additional weeks can be reserved and deposited into RCI Points to obtain even more points. You've managed to do it with a timeshare that limits you only to ONE week of use a year. The UDIs are the best thing that happened in the netherworld of the the timeshare industry!

posted 03-26-2005 11:14               

quote:

---

Originally posted by 1341a:
What about selling points. I've read that people have had problems when they don't want them anymore. I own at Sunterra, and their points system is quite alluring, but they want alot of money to join, but when I sell my week, the points don't go with it.
Is this the same eveywhere else?

---

No

posted 03-28-2005 23:14               

But as an young retiree, I no longer crave long vacations. I relax at home and enjoy all the things one can do with family and friends in the neighborhood when free of 9-5 job restrictions. I can no longer take 4-5 week vacations to far off places due to the responsibility of looking after my 88 year old mother-in-law. She is still living independently but requires more attention because she is getting very forgetful. I can now take vacations on short notice, and enjoy the pleasures of going slightly off season when the crowds are gone but the weather is still delighful. The cost of doing so is minimal using RCI and II getaway and bonus weeks. I find great deals at SkyAuction.com. And some wonderful TUG Platinum Fairfield buddies are able to get me Fairfield nights or weekends at a great price. I've also taken some cruises and really like that form of vacation.

Through all the knowledge I received from TUG, I purchased my 15 weeks gradually at prime resorts, at bargain-basement prices. I now rent 8 of my 15 weeks every year. With years of experience, it is an easy task. I run the same ads in the same places (Redweek.com provides the best results, by far). I hold wonderful telephone conversations with nice people from all over the country, Email or fax the rental agreement, make a good profit, and have a lot of repeat renters. One couple has rented our Cancun unit every year for the past 8 years and they have already sent me a 50% deposit for next year. Our 4 prime weeks at the Royal Resorts cost less than $8,000. total and we are due to receive $27,000. residual values in 2007. That purchase alone puts me way ahead of the game financially.

In 1990 I decided not to purchase any more weeks unless I could see myself using them year after year. Seven of our weeks fall into that category--2 weeks in the same unit in Cape Cod in August, and 4 February weeks in the same! unit in Ft. Lauderdale, plus a floating week at a beachfront timeshare in Atlantic City (July weeks already reserved for 2005 and 2006). These 7 weeks would be "tiger" traders if I decided to use them that way, but they also rent for top $$$ so that is the route we take whenever we want to go somewhere else for a change.

I am stil a high-energy person but I grew weary of the constant searching for desirable exchanges. There is definitely a dramatic decrease in the number of good weeks available to RCI weeks members. As a result, many of us who own prime weeks no longer give them to an exchange company. And thus the availability becomes less each year. It's a vicious cycle. At this point, we enjoy the certainty of knowing exactly where we will be going each year. We drive to our Cape Cod weeks and can snag really low airfare to Ft. Lauderdale when the usual Autumn sales occur. When we want to go somewhere different, we rent from a TUG member, or through an owner ad at Redweek.com. We spent President's week in 2004 in a 2 bedroom/2 bath Penthouse unit at the Galleon in Key West, paying the owner $1000. for the week. This is less than we received for renting one of our Cancun weeks (at a Royal Resort). So we did the equivalent of an "exchange" w/o all the aggravation and expense of going through RCI or II. Do you think we would have ever gotten The Galleon on a traditional exchange?

Overall I'm glad we own fixed weeks instead of points. It is so much easier to handle. We could sell any one of our weeks for far more than we paid. We can easily take extra vacations through SkyAuction and RCI and II bonus/getaway weeks. Our vacations will not depend upon availability through RCI or II or Fairfield or some other system. We will not need guest certificates nor pay exchange fees. We will not have to worry about the "RCI police" prohibiting rentals. By purchasing weeks back-to-back in the same unit, we do not have to pack up and move every Saturday, and worry about our food spoiling as we check out at 10:00 a.m. and wait up until 4:00 p.m. to get into the next unit. By owning our 4 weeks in the same unit in Ft. Lauderdale every February, we have saved ourselves the enormous expense of purchasing a condo for snowbird escapes.

posted 03-29-2005 14:30               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jennie:
...keep in mind that the time may come when the thrill wears off and you will want to simplify your "timeshare life." When that happened to me, I was glad I owned rentable, usable fixed weeks.

---

Wow, lots of good timesharing experience there, Jennie! Very interesting post.

It's possible, though, to have *both* points and rentable weeks. I own a fixed week 26 (July 4th most years) that I converted into RCI Points. I rented it last year with no problem, even though July 4th didn't fall into week 26 in 2004.
I also own Disney Vacation Club points, which are very easy to rent, although they are not tied to a fixed week.

So, for maximum flexibility, Tuggers might want to consider timeshares that offer both points AND renting possibilities.