posted 08-20-2003 08:12               

[Personal remarks deleted.]

Having said that,I do, however, agree with you that non-members should do the right thing voluntarily or be required to pay after X amount of postings. As we all know, this is not a requirement by the BBS by-laws, however, the paying members do shoulder the financial responsibility for the non-members. I'd be mortified to reap the benefits of the paying members. I did previously say "sponge off", but that was rude and I have edited this message.
Beags

[This message has been edited by beaglemom3 (edited 08-20-2003).]

posted 08-20-2003 08:34               

------------------
The trouble with vacations is that your mind leaves a week before and stays a week longer your body does.

posted 08-20-2003 08:54               

Many Tuggers know my style. I'm straight foward and honest and I'll say something that many won't say publicly. I don't BS anyone here but I look out for all Tuggers. Beaglemom, you are a sweetie, If my sarcasm hurt you I appologize. Buff/Scott

[This message has been edited by buff (edited 08-20-2003).]

posted 08-20-2003 09:20            

The subject of non members reading/posting on the Tug BBS has been hashed, rehashed and discussed ad nauseum many, many times before. It all boils down to the note below.

As has been stated, if you have a problem with non members reading and posting on the BBS then email Bill Rogers, who is the owner of Tug and is the only person who can change this rule. No one else has the authority but him.

All this discussion is a moot point until you let Bill Rogers know how you feel.

posted 08-20-2003 09:23               

If people want to continue to discuss TUG's membership rules, please focus on the issue, not on the individual.

This is a legitimate topic of dicussion, but TUG's rules specifically prohibit behavior lectures and personal attacks. If anyone needs a reminder of those rules, please visit the Lounge home page and click the Announcements link at the top.

Let's all try to get along, OK?

posted 08-20-2003 09:49               

I don't "pay" to participate in any other BBS I participate in, does anyone else?

posted 08-20-2003 09:59               

Many of us have stated in the past that we wished TUG would become "Members Only" or that nonmembers would have their privileges restricted, but this is not Bill Rogers' wish. Bill Rogers wishes that TUG's Bulletin Boards be open to all, and since he's TUG's owner, he gets to make this decision,

If you don't agree with that, then you should email Bill with your most persuasive arguement. That would be the right thing to do.

posted 08-20-2003 10:21            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fern Modena:
Many of us have stated in the past that we wished TUG would become "Members Only" or that nonmembers would have their privileges restricted, but this is not Bill Rogers' wish. Bill Rogers wishes that TUG's Bulletin Boards be open to all, and since he's TUG's owner, he gets to make this decision,

If you don't agree with that, then you should email Bill with your most persuasive arguement. That would be the right thing to do.

Fern Modena
TUG BBS Manager and
"Overall Timeshare Guru"

---

That pretty much sums it up folks.

posted 08-20-2003 11:32            

I had no idea that my question for ED in the lounge on computers would have this result.

I didn't know or ever sees buff's message, so when I went to see what advice was there I couldn't understand why someone's post had been deleted.

Well here I am. Fire away!

While I'm waiting on the storm here are a few thoughts...

Thank you to Ed and the others who stuck up for me and other non-members in my absence from the discussion.

Judging by how many personal remarks have been deleted from this thread, this must really cause alot of sleepless nights for some.

For what it is worth...I'm sure that I have around 125 or so posts (I can't see the number right now) in the last 6 weeks or so.

I have asked several questions concerning the buying and selling of a TS and have done quite a bit of research/reading of posts here on TUG. (as well as elsewhere)

I also asked a question yesterday about whether vistana was the same as vistana villages on the FL board and which one was the nicer of the two.

I have gotten involved in some of the political posts and actually like when they get a little out-of-hand. I think it's wonderful that people stand up for something, even if I don't fully agree with it. (but I'll always try to bring them around )

At the same time I, and also my better half, have passed on advice from the legal side of life, advice on dealing with a bill collector, advice on dealing with a TS company that wouldn't respond to a poster here, and several other topics that escape me at this time.

Sooo....You're right I have tried out TUG. Guilty.

However I akin this to test driving a car and I would walk off the lot if someone there at the dealership said, " well, we educated you about our car you've been on a test drive now pay up!"

I pretty sure if you really speak your mind that you would tell the guy you weren't quite ready yet. ( if that were the case) And if he demanded you pay up or get off the lot that you would walk. You probably have a reason why you are not buying the car right now, huh?

Well by being "forced" off the lot you probably won't return, AND you are likely to spread ill will when visiting other websites, er dealerships.

You also while having the joy of trying the car out won't get to use it to it's full advantage either. To do that it is time to pay up.

Well, I can certainly tell you that I feel I am missing out on alot of the benefits of TUG right now. I would LOVE to see those reviews. I would LOVE to be able to use the search feature instead of going through every post to find info on my topic. I would LOVE to use the sightings board, to see all that I am missing. I would LOVE to be able to do all things TUGGER!

So if I'm not there must be a reason right?????

Am I a freeloader? I don't feel not being ready to "buy the car" is grounds for being called a freeloader. You took the test drive - how would you feel if the folks at the dealership called you a "freeloader" for taking a ride in their shiny new car and then not buying it. What if you took it for 5 testdrives? They might expect you to buy it after that, but you might still not be ready.

Maybe its a financial thing for some - I actually doubt that it is. TS seems to be similar to a boat. You are going to have to put some dinero into it to get the best out of it. AND I agree 15-20 dollars or so is extremely inexpensive for the service provided. (a bargain at twice that if you ask me) So, I don't feel that is the reason. (maybe for a few, but certainly not the majority)If you own a TS chances are you have already invested many $$$$.

Just so you know, I do not have a regular guy who works on our computers. But having just met "ED" through this website and seeing his (and others) expertise, I thought I would see what they had to say about it. You're right I should have made the call to a few different local guys to get various options on what to do . The problem is that none of them are in check by the other guy. And you're right Ed could make a bundle. (probably already has!!)I thank him again for his not sending me a bill and acting out of his own personal kindness.

On the same line of thinking, I guess the legal advice that my wife has given to some here on TUG has a value as well. The time that she spent the other night composing a response to a legal question, only to have it disappear seconds before posting, and then spending the time to re-compose the answer was IMO a testament of kindness to strangers at work.

I always stop to help someone broke down on the side of the road. It's how I was raised. It never enters my mind that they should have taken better care of their car or planned ahead. I don't feel cheated that I am giving of myself to help another. And guess what...I would stop for you too buff. NO CHARGE.

So...that is pretty much where I stand. I appreciate the opportunity to have you bash me at your free will. That is your right. I hope I have given a little insight on why someone might be here and not be a member.

I again want to thank the moderator on my computer question (I think it was Marina) for trying to protect my feelings. The moderators here do a wonderful job. I don't believe you'll ever find me p***** at them for doing that job. If they feel that I am wrong , I WILL NOT judge them for it.

I also want to thank ED for keeping my confidence to him while speaking on this subject.

Oh yea, did I forget to mention that I already voiced my intention of joining TUG to him OVER TWO WEEKS AGO, and that I was simply waiting for my RCI acct. to be set up so that I would always have the yearly fees for both re-occur at the SAME TIME????????????? Thereby having only to remember one date instead of two.

If you don't believe me ask ED, he has far more principles than some here will ever know. He was willing to protect me and others on the PRINCIPLE of the matter, when he very well could have shown you the e-mail that I wrote to him.

AND not that it is anyone's business (which I believe is what Ed was tring to point out), but my renewal date for RCI will be Sept. 1 (I believe that was the date). I just found out yesterday that the acct. is now active.

On the other side of things, My wife and 2 kids are going to take our family vacation to Orlando this year. We've never been. We will stay at Orange Lake C.C. in a 2 br that we got for 9000 points yesterday and we got an incredible deal on the air ($210pp). Just need some advice on the entertainment and a car and we are all set.

I dare say that I will be spending more time on the Disney Boards to help plan this trip. I would ask questions on the FL board here, but since I won't be joining until Sept 1, I know this would keep some of you up at night.

BTW, calling someone names is not very nice.

Tex

PS - Is that the kind of feedback you were looking for?

posted 08-20-2003 11:44            

I'm not at all trying to put Bill down for doing what's necessary to generate income to operate this website. I'm merely curious about the connections between TUG's membership policy and economics.

posted 08-20-2003 12:23            

Anyway, if no mods or admins know percentages I'm wondering about, maybe I'll email Bill this question. I certainly don't abuse any emailing privileges of owner/mods/admins...I think *maybe* I've emailed Bill once or twice in my entire history on TUG, and they were emails having to do with my email addy changing or whatever.

Well, I'm off to look up his email addy. Hmmm, while I'm at it I think I'll ask him when the private password is going to change. I thought it changed in July every year. But maybe he's on vacation right now...I would be if I lived in hot/humid Orlando!

posted 08-20-2003 12:39               

quote:

---

Originally posted by rhonkus:
So I can easily see why "non-member" would not feel obligated except for the browbeating they take and folks making them feel unwelcome.

---

This pretty much sums it up. Although most TUG members present an inviting attitude toward us non members, there are those few who project ill will toward people outright for their political views and/or present information which pinpoints that ill will toward individuals who always seem to overpower those of good will. And it is these few that keep us putting off joining. After all $15.00 is not going to change who we are and if you don't like us now, you won't like us later.
Let me say that the moderators do a fine job in keeping this board proper, and from his postings Ed seems to be a stand up guy, but the first posting set the tone for everyone else. I feel that this is where the deletions should have started, if only to soften the feeling of it.
I can understand why a lot of my last posting was deleted, especially the more colorful adjectives (none of which were curse words, BTW). However a lot of my defense was also deleted. What was left made me sound cold and uncaring.
I felt that I was pinpointed to be the brunt of this thread by info given in early postings and I reacted in what I considered to be a like manner. If any third party member was offended by what I had to say before it was edited, I apologize.

posted 08-20-2003 12:48               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Carol C:
Well, I'm off to look up his email addy. Hmmm, while I'm at it I think I'll ask him when the private password is going to change. I thought it changed in July every year. But maybe he's on vacation right now...I would be if I lived in hot/humid Orlando!

---

Bill's email address is tug@tug2.net. The password will be changed any day now. I spoke with Bill about it last week and am waiting for word from him.

I certainly can't speak for Bill, but I would point to the nearly unanimous negative reaction of the TUG community when Redweek.com decided to charge for members to access for-sale listings. That might be a good parallel. IMHO, TUG's business model makes very good sense. The BBS is free. People can come here and get incredible amounts of value without having to pay a dime. They can develop a level of comfort with the site and its content, and when they're ready, those who want access to the really good stuff can pay 15 bucks. Apparently, it works well enough to keep TUG humming along.

posted 08-20-2003 14:25            

quote:

---

Originally posted by EdB:
The BBS is free. People can come here and get incredible amounts of value without having to pay a dime. They can develop a level of comfort with the site and its content, and when they're ready, those who want access to the really good stuff can pay 15 bucks. Apparently, it works well enough to keep TUG humming along.

[This message has been edited by EdB (edited 08-20-2003).]

---

Ed, I hope I wasn't misinterpreted. I'm not suggesting (without knowing TUG's background economics issues) that the dues structure should be abolished entirely. And I'm not a cheapskate that's hoping to avoid paying dues either...heck, I just renewed in May for the three year discounted rate of only 25 bucks that includes three free classified ads on TUG. Now *those* economics make sense to me.

I'm just wondering if maybe it's time to re-evaluate where TUG's income stream is coming from, and if dues are only a very small percentage of it, maybe it would make sense to abolish dues altogether. Every time the member/non-member subject comes up, people get offended on either side of the debate. I am a person who never "got it" how folks could view themselves as full members of the TUG community but didn't value TUG enough to give 10-15 bucks a year. Of course I used to work in public tv and knew how many people watch it and don't ever give, and also how many pledge during fundraising periods and then don't fulfill pledges by sending in their checks. For some people, if something can be had for free, they simply will not see any sense in paying for it, even on a voluntary or "good will" basis. That's why charities have such a hard time raising funds.

Anyway, I guess I'm hoping the policy re: dues might be re-examined. Perhaps it can be altered in some way that will not negatively impact TUG's "bottom line" but will help soften this debate that pops up from time to time. And if nothing changes policy-wise, dues-paying members can choose to respond and help...*or not*...when non-members post questions on the bbs's that would already have answers easy to find in TUG Reviews, TUG Archives, etc.

P.S. I don't know why anyone posting in this thread is bringing up politics and TUG Lounge...that's not what this bbs or this topic is about. I wish folks would stay on course...referencing other bbs's and their hot topics only inserts more rancor, and it's hot enuf in here as it is.

posted 08-20-2003 14:32               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fern Modena:
Bill Rogers wishes that TUG's Bulletin Boards be open to all, and since he's TUG's owner, he gets to make this decision,

If you don't agree with that, then you should email Bill with your most persuasive arguement. That would be the right thing to do.

Fern Modena
TUG BBS Manager and
"Overall Timeshare Guru"

---

Sorry Fern but I simply don't agree with the argument you are putting forward here regarding persuasive arguments to Bill.

As you say, this is his site, and he wants general access to be free. If that is the desire of the owner of the board what right does anybody have to try to persuade / coerce him to do otherwise? If anybody objects to other getting a "free ride" they are at liberty not to pay their subs. Yes, I have paid

Just my four penn'orth.

------------------
Regards

posted 08-20-2003 16:08            

I appreciate your comments. I did not say that taking 50 tests drives wouldn't be too much. My point was that taking however many test drives would be similar to making a hundred odd posts on a website.

I was attempting to use the "car sales" analogy to show that I was merely "test driving" the TUG website.

Buff's original post (which was deleted), on the lounge thread in which I asked a computer question, apparently attacked me for asking questions on TUG. The thing was... if this thread had not been started, I wouldn't have even known what had occurred. Secondly, in a little more than a week he would have had nothing to base that statement on anyway.

He asked for feedback from non-members and I gave him some. It will be interesting to see his reply to my post.

I also pointed out the EXACT reason I have not joined up to this point which apparently was giving him alot of problems with me.

I have no ill will towards buff. He was simply did not know my intentions and assumed alot.

I can certainly see that some folks consider it in bad form to "hang-out". That is certainly their right as well.

Situation from my past:

Many years ago there was an older ( I say that affectionately) gentleman who came to our golf course (a private club). He was not a member. He said that he had played as a guest once and he loved the coffee and donuts.

He asked permission to drop by now and then to have a cup of joe even though he would not be joining the club. We certainly did not mind. He understood that he was not going to get playing priv. just because he hung around and that he could not use the facilities (pool, tennis,etc.)as those were for the members.

He was a great guy, had some great stories and did give of himself, even though he was not able to join.

We didn't mind him being there at all. He said that he just liked "hanging out " with us.

I have never been able to see that the membership "lost" anything by his presence.

Sure "technically" he wasn't suppose to be there, but in my neck of the woods, we welcome folks with open arms.

I have a feeling that Bill (the owner of TUG) would rather have people "hang-out" with the TUG family and end up not joining, than to leave after 25 posts (or whatever your # or req.)with a bad taste in their mouth and spread that bit of news with the world.

He is building goodwill. And I'm sure if you ask the businessmen here on this site, it is one of the hardest things to come by and easiest things to lose.

Anyway, have a great day!

Tex

Ps - please don't loose sleep over an issue such as this, there are so many other things in life to focus on.

posted 08-20-2003 16:46            

I also posted a couple of really funny jokes.

C'mon buff, that's got to be worth something, right?

posted 08-20-2003 18:34               

I think his inquiry is legitimate. I, too, have often wondered why someone would continue to visit TUG and not become a member.

As has been mentioned.....it's a measly $15, certainly not cost prohibitive.

Let non-members explain their position. Maybe we will all learn something.

Anne